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Forum:Armory Defenses
Hazza-the-Fox 01:58, August 26, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox Ok, this is the section for figuring out armory structures and base defenses; We can agree that walls are absolutely vital, can block access and block line of fire. The walls can effectively keep out pesky engineers (unless they slip in through the entrances), and can temporarily, keep out spies and operatives until they gain some specific abilities to break through walls later in the game. Gates are another issue; though some people really want them, we should consider that by putting them in, it would become pointless for most units that cannot breach walls (engineers) to be used in any way. So this needs to be considered. Standard AA defenses (basically- the Patriot missile and Flak Cannon) are simple enough; it would be best to keep these as RA2 had them, slow-ROF but hard-hitting, so they meet an easy middle-ground between the hordes of Air Defender infantry, fast jets and slow kirovs. another factor for both AA structures- which I probably will NOT include- but considering, is to have the adv tech lab upgrade these structures to be able to fire on ground like an artillery unit (Flak detonates overhead, showering shrapnel, patriot missiles simply bombard the area like a lighter version of the MARS). We can always have AA machinegun defenses incorporated into other units or structures. the Flak raider could be outfitted with a light automatic flak gun instead of the middle-caliber artillery flak piece, for example. Others could simply have a standard 50cal AA machinegun; These would not need to be extremely effective against air, but provide welcome support fire from structures that specialize against other targets too (and potentially, get players to decline to use the proper AA defenses to try to use generalized defenses- at the expense of a smaller airforce being able to penetrate). All in all it would just be a welcome (but petty) addition to a non-AA defense or regular structure. The Tesla Coil and Prism Tower are of course definitely to be included (with potential name changes to reflect a slightly different history to bring similar technologies- kinda like the spectrum towers- but they simply do the same thing). Prism Towers combine their beams, and Tesla Coils absorb the input from Tesla Troopers (and possibly nearby Tesla reactors- to give these structures some useful purpose once the nuclear reactor is installed). The only question for these is design- we could stick with the unmanned devices inserted directly in the ground (as the other Red Alert games do)- or we could make both appear to be built on some kind of reinforced bunker or tower- especially considering the Tesla Coil needs a place for its troopers to plug themselves into. Something to think about. I'll get to the more minor defenses in the next thread- as they will be a more complicated matter. VolteMetalic 06:28, August 26, 2011 (UTC): For the start, why "armoury structures? :P Walls are must. I gave them for now names Concrete Wall for Allie)and Brick Wall for Soviets. They will be by stats all the same, only will look different. Concrete Wall will be pretty plane likle in RA1 and RA2 and to mimic the architecture of the democratic west. And Brick Wall mimics the less-advanced east, and the walls on the Red Square in Moscow. Gates... They should be included, because for your objections to the engineers, which idiot will send a lone engineer into enemy base through the main entrance? :P They should be included, but maybe not as in Tiberium Sun, that they will slide down, but to the sides (so they move into the walls technically) or as normal gates (will require more space probably). If you want to sneak your engineer intot he base, you will have to make your own "entrance" to the base ;P Yup, a medium-caliber AA is the best. Soviet Flak Cannon and Allied Patriot Missile Launcher. They would look like in real-life, that Flak Cannon is manned by at least one guy who shoots and it reloads automatically (or the gunner is somewhere hidden, but still connected to the gun, not like in RA2), and Patriot as in Generals. For their anti-surface attacks, I agree, but Flak should act as normal tank gun. Look in german 88mm, they were better than normal anti-tank guns ;) For the ligth AA like on Mauler, that would be good. Maybe also on some structures (like Barracks). The name of Prism Tower should stay, "prism" souds great. For its appearance, I think as in RA2 would be the best, because it can be controlled remotely from somewhere else, like ConYard. Tesla Coil, there I agree to put the weapon on the bunker structure, but to be little bulky, like Tesla Coil from Rise of the Reds, that would be best. For other defenses, maybe Pillbox for Allies, or Fortification (Chinese Bunker in Allied style), and the Pillbox will be Soviet (combination of RA2 Pillbox and RA3 Sentry Gun). And what is Allies' offensive superweapon? The "Fallout Fort" I put into the box for Soviets, that Soviet's counterpart of Allied Grand Cannon, so "national defense". It is a large structure with large RAD gun, maybe with few MGs for close anti-infantry purpose. It is pretty resistant structure, which is unaffected by radiation (so Soviet vs Soviet must be vary to not send Desolator against this structure). It is only my idea, another idea is some sort of "Scud Launcher", large (2×2 squares like Grand Cannon) bunker with large rockets which it launches against enemy. So it is long-ranged like Grand Cannon, stronger but less accurate. Hazza-the-Fox 01:56, August 27, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox Walls- perfect- that is exactly what I was thinking (and really, the only logical way to make them- concrete and brick-style) Gates- problem is things like engineer rushes- or even shuttling a group of engineers via the flak track were good mainly because they could just zip past defenses, needing at best, a cheap, weak attack force to act as a distraction, and did not actually need a powerful enough force to actually break open the walls, clear a path and then distract the defenders.. keep in mind that it is already hard to justify tricky units like engineers against easier attack units- making the engineers too dependent might encourage players to simply focus entirely on the attack units instead. Hence I was thinking they should be very high-tier, and probably vulnerable to being smashed open by some vehicles that can't smash through walls- but to compensate, could garrison infantry in attached bunkers, for balance. Agree also- Flak cannon same as RA2- only with a guy (a Flak Trooper) on a seat attached to the back. Patriot is simply remote-controlled. Making these things attack ground also raises the question of how Prism and Tesla fit in. 50Cal AA- I agree- an addition to some key structures is good (and of course, elite tank crews) Prism/Tesla- sounds good. Fallout Fort sounds good- I was thinking myself of an ultra-long-ranged Psi Tower, that might possibly also double as a miniature 'Psychic Dominator'- only it doesn't damage structures and control is temporary. Similarly, the country that gets the Grand Cannon (France) could also get the paradrop (both cases, this is connected to the Radar being constructed). As we're kinda beefing up the national units a bit- it only makes sense that two stationary defenses should get some slight invasion ability to compensate. Pillboxes/bunkers- I'll get to that in my next post (along with the other threads)! VolteMetalic 08:53, August 27, 2011 (UTC): Gates- It depends on what kind of gates there will be. Flak Cannon- Instead of sitting on the back, make it beside the gun, otherwise the recoil of the gun will kill the gunner ;P They will be good against vehicles, and ships partially, but against infantry they are useless, its too small target :D Prism/Tesla- They will still be much better than AA after purchasing upgrade. There is already enough Psychic stuff, and radiation is present only in Desolator and as side-effect of Nuke Truck. Why woudl France get paradrop when they have already Grand Cannon? Oh, that reminds me, we should discuss which countries exactly will be present for National Units. Hazza-the-Fox 09:25, August 28, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox Could have sworn I posted my answers here before- must have disappeared :/ Gates- true; I still think that they should have vulnerability to being busted open by more kinds of units, and come as a later-tier structure, with some garrisonable watchtowers to compensate. Because even though we want defense structures to do the job- we want to make sure that they don't limit threats only to heavy assaults too easily. Flak Cannon- good point. I was thinking of the seat being suspended a bit away from the recoil mechanism- but sideways could alternatively mean that the radar etc gear could be saddled on the other side. Of course, by having a single guy attached to the rear, rather than guys on the side, it might give the appearance of a 'less-light' gun than it really is. For damage, I was thinking about it and had an awesome idea; We make the Flak gun a kind of all-purpose "light" defense, that is kinda like a massively heavier replacement to the Sentry gun. The reason is, Flak is actually effective at virtually everything- infantry included if you detonate the shells close to where the infantry are mid-flight- and this efficiency would be tempered by its slower rate of fire (being the largest model of an artillery-based high-altitude flak gun). Prism/Tesla- we'll also need to think of a reason why these two can't target AA themselves (or alternatively, make it another Adv Lab bonus that allows them to target air). True about the Psychic stuff vs RAd stuff. A slight hickup I just realized in my nationals thread is that the Soviets have one extra vehicle- so giving the Soviets a national defense structure will actually put them one nation ahead. (and yes- I hopefully put up the Nationals board right). The other consideration are the basic defenses; stationary machinegun nests, or infantry-fighting positions (stationary IFVs), Battle Bunkers, Tank Bunkers, possibly flame turrets, cannister launchers, etc. We're going to have to figure out which of these are most needed, or which of these would cause too many balancing problems. VolteMetalic 10:47, August 28, 2011 (UTC): Gates- Hmm... we should think more about it, hmm... As Paradox makes them, gates can be opened or locked by the orders of the player, they cant open on their own when friendly unit is trying to pass throguh them, they must be opened, so maybe this would be their weakness, hmm. Flak Cannon- Hmm... I am not sure how you mean it, like that Flak Cannon will be able to fire on everything, but not that strong against them? Only aircraft will gain more damage from them? Hmm, this would give access to a stronger Soviet AA defense, SA missiles like Gadfly or SA-2. Prism/Tesla- Prism can be explained that the mirrors are pointing only on the ground, so they can techncially hit only landing aircraft or aircraft flying very low above ground. And Tesla Coil, helicopters and aircrafts dont have a ground so they are probably untouchable by Tesla lightnings. But for the upgrade, Tesla Coil would have it, and the effect would be the lightnings coming straight down from the helicotper when hit :P For Prism Tower, I dont know, hmm... When we will think about it in global, Soviets will have 3 defenses capable of anti-air combat, as their counter to Allied aerial supremacy :) Yeah, but dont forget a German-national howtizer/tank-destroyer we talked about earlier :D Yeah, we must think about it more. Hazza-the-Fox 12:48, August 28, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox Gates- that *could* work in most cases- though it would not be hard to stop a one-off charge by locking the door and simply hold out the resources till your defenders quickly pick off the engineers. But we can look into it Flak Cannon- not quite- the Flak cannon would do actually quite a bit of damage to all units- but more extreme damage to air. Against tanks it would probably have to shoot three or four times (as opposed to the unassisted Prism or Tesla Coil's one or two), and would probably need to shoot twice against infantry (but damages them as a group due to its splash). It is impaired mainly by its slower rate of fire. So it basically serves as a mid-level, medium-high damage all-purpose defense- and of course, any air units will always draw their fire away from ground attackers Prism/Tesla- seems that way- I was thinking of using those reasons too- I guess the adv battle lab can refine the Tesla Coil's magnetic rails to aim at the air- and for the Prism Tower, simply adds a more intuitive mirror system? Yup- I think for these we should probably see what capabilities are still missing from the Allies (though an all-round combat tank is probably one major one- thought at the same time if we were to state Einstein/Germany as the people behind Chrono Tech- they in particular would make more sense getting the Chrono Siege Relay. But anyway- something to look into VolteMetalic 03:52, August 29, 2011 (UTC): Gate- Hmm... Flak Cannon- Aha, now I understand it. That could work. And what about Patriot? Prism/Tesla- Magnetic rails could work, for Prism, probably, maybe it can change the appearense of the weapon on the tower a little, liek they did changes there so the mirrors can als rotates up. But I would better like that Prism is not able to, it isnt as fun as Tesla's lightnings. Unless there will be other weapon which will be AA on prism, like ball-like mirror on top, but that could work bad... maybe a small turret like on Prism Tank? No, Germany, with Eistein or not, is nation more centered around an standart armorued units, some high-tech stuff more fits to France. Self-Propelled Gun would work well for Germany. Btw, can you fill something to Mauler in Soviet Arsenal? :) There is a small section for it ;) Hazza-the-Fox 11:26, August 30, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox Cool Patriot- hmmm, haven't really thought about that yet; mass missile bombardments maybe- either that or the Patriot is strictly AA-only, and the Allies get an extra-potent third/fourth defense structure to compensate? I'm not really sure. Prism/Tesla; either way, if it were restricted to an expensive Adv Lab upgrade it won't be too deadly; Tesla Coils would get an extra array of rails built into the 'bulb' on top, and the Prism Tower could simply get a whole extra set of Prism mirrors that point upwards instead of downwards? No probs for German vehicle No probs- added a tiny bit of data- wasn't sure if this was meant to be a short overview for the mainpage, or a more substantiated description, so I made a brief one just to fill in some gaps (sadly not much though- just the main arsenal and 'classified' for the special ability as I haven't thought of what it is yet) :/ VolteMetalic 11:48, August 30, 2011 (UTC): Hmm... maybe like in ZH, Patriots are multi-role rocket systems, against air they does the biggest damage, against vehicles moderate, but are not capable of dealing with infantry, because the missiles cant be guided on them, so infantry must stand on the spot to be hit, than Patirot can kill it with few shots. Hmm... Will see. Not much description is needed at all there :D Maybe just to add some information like "Speed, Armor, Cost" but also "Strogn Against" and "Weak Agaisnt" :D But its mainly for discussion on the particualt unit :) Because Secondary isnt set yet :) Hazza-the-Fox 14:41, August 30, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox I was thinking that could be a good idea. No probs Put up some more details- for armour and speed, I couldn't think of what precise figures to give- but they would correspond to the Rhino: slightly more armor, and about 25%- 35% faster movement, and a reload rate similarly faster too. (it worked really nicely in RA2- just giving this speed/reload boost to the Rhino, it actually still proved superior to a Grizzly (that itself had its gun switched for a tank destroyer's cannon (albiet inflicting far more damage to all other targets too))- the end result for both were two extremely potent tanks that would prove quite dangerous, and started to differentiate in different ways- the Grizzly's weaker armor and slower-but-heavier damage proved perfect for hit-and-run or taking potshots- or complementing other units; the rhino was a pure combat tank!. And of course, nearly doubling the cost of all tank units is another measure I put in.